vegetarules16

Aug 17 2011, 09:55 PM

I like Broly as a character, I just don't like how people overrate him. But I do agree with this...

"Okay, since I've been, erm, "invited" to take part, here's my contribution to the entire thing. This might end up long, so I'll bold the important points.

At first glance, Movie 8 might appear to take place at the Cell Games' point in time, and this is the biggest point in the idea or argument that Broly is equal or superior to Perfect Cell at full power. But this isn't necessarily the case.

First off, note that just about every single DBZ movie is a sort of "counterpart" to some point in the series. This is evident by examining the strengths, abilities, and appearances of the characters within it. For example, Movie 2 is a parallel to the battle with Vegeta, with Wheelo playing the "part" of Vegeta himself in his battle with Goku. Movie 4 is a callback to the later parts of Namek, with Goku's battles with Slug's minions drawing heavily from his beat-down of the Ginyu Force, and with Slug being an amalgam in power and role of Ginyu himself and Freeza. Coola is a parallel of Freeza in Movie 5 and the Androids in Movie 6. And so forth.

Broly himself especially falls into this trend. It's just a matter of which villain, and at which point, he is equated to. The best way we can do this is by more closely examining the heroes who fought him.

First off, Goku and Gohan. They are the biggest factors in this entire ordeal. The mere fact that they were both Super Saiyans seems to confirm that they're their Cell Games selves in Movie 8, correct? No, not automatically, and for one big reason: Gohan was weaker than Goku.

This was most definitely not the case in the Cell Games, where Gohan had a lead sizable enough to shock everyone present, and even enough power to pique Cell's interest. But in Movie 8, Gohan was portrayed as easily the weakest of the Super Saiyan heroes. Compared to the durability he showed when under attack by Cell, Gohan was KO'd very easily by Broly. Presuming the two villains have comparable power, this is a big discrepancy.

And it's not just Gohan's power in question. Despite none of them managing to do any real damage, all of the Super Saiyan heroes are able to withstand Broly's attacks for a good amount of time. ALL of them, not just Goku. Vegeta and Trunks were no better or worse off. Even Piccolo was able to keep up. In the Cell Games, this wasn't the case. Goku, Gohan, and Cell all had very large leads on everyone else.

Trunks and Vegeta, at times, seem to be using their "Grade 2" stage in the fight against Broly. It's not definitive, but the amount of muscle mass suggests it. This is something they'd evidently both abandoned by the Cell Games (they have less musculature, and never exhibit anything but a regular Super Saiyan aura).

So all in all, how does this leave the heroes, and at what "point" in the main series does this Movie connect to? There's an easy answer, and it's something best known as the "Mid-RoSaT" theory.

Specifically, it addresses Gohan and Goku's evident weakness in comparison to their Cell Games selves by supposing that they'd left the Room of Spirit and Time early for some reason or another. Which would indicate that, one way or another, Cell was dealt with without them. Maybe "Super" Vegeta didn't fall for Cell's coaxing and killed him before becoming Perfect, or his Final Flash happened to hit Cell's core and finished him off, or SSj Grade 3 Trunks managed to catch him... Who knows.

I'm sure that, despite himself probably wanting to train more, in such a situation Goku wouldn't insist on staying in the room. With the threat gone, he wouldn't force Gohan to stay in the room away from friends and family (ChiChi in particular would want him out now that there's no need to fight). Not to mention that wasting time in the room that might be needed later wouldn't be a wise idea.

So, long story short, we didn't have this Gohan in Movie 8, we had this one. He and Goku had, presumably, already mastered Super Saiyan, but didn't get to spend enough time training to amass the huge amount of raw power they did in the series. Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo, however, would be the same as they were in their tangos with the Androids and Semiperfect Cell.

So, in the series, at the Cell Games, the power-ranking was something like this:

Cell > Gohan > Goku >>> Vegeta > Trunks > Piccolo

But in Movie 8, it was more like this:

Broly > Goku > Vegeta > Trunks > Gohan > Piccolo

In both cases, the villains are stronger than the main heroes. But the power of the heroes themselves are drastically different. When we combine it, here's how things measure up:

Perfect Cell > Gohan (Cell Games) > Goku (Cell Games) >>> Vegeta (Cell Games) > Trunks (Cell Games) > Perfect Cell (Suppressed, vs Vegeta & Trunks) = Broly (Movie 8) > Goku (Movie 8) > Vegeta (Movie 8) < Trunks (Movie 8) < Gohan (Movie 8)

A-ha, do you see what I did there? That's right, I think we've figured out which series villain Broly compares to in Movie 8. It's still Perfect Cell, but at his first appearance. Not his drastically powered-up form against SSj2 Gohan, or even against Goku. He represents the weaker tier of the "Perfect Cell range" of power. The same way Slug represented first-form Freeza while Coola represented Freeza's higher levels. Our space-pirate-pal Bojack would represent Perfect Cell at his best.

That's the important part, I'd say. Having worked all that out, Movie 10 is much easier to pick out just where it's placed in the series. It's in the early portions of the Majin Boo arc, during the training before the tournament. It's easy to tell from the appearance and abilities of the characters. Gohan is annoyed that he's actually having trouble with Broly, noting that he's gotten even stronger "than last time."

Since in context he means "the last time I fought Broly," this lends heavily to the "mid-RoSaT" theory for Movie 8. Gohan at this point in the series is actually weaker than he was at the Cell Games. So in order for there to be a substantial difference between now and then for him, then his Movie 8 self can't have been as strong as his Cell Games self. So here's how things now stack up (Super Saiyan forms notwithstanding):

> Gohan (Cell Games) > Broly (Movie 10) > Gohan (Movie 10) > Broly (Movie 8) > Gohan (Movie 8)

With that figured out, there's only one small factor remaining in figuring out how Broly compares in Movie 10, and that actually boils down to opinion and choice, rather than hard facts.

If you decide to take the concept art to heart, and assume Gohan was using Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10, then Broly in that same film becomes the movies' equivalent of Super Perfect Cell.

If instead, like me, you decide not to take Toei's word for it since they don't know their asses from their hands when it comes to visually differentiating the Super Saiyan forms, and thus assume Gohan was only at Super Saiyan 1, then Movie 10 Broly becomes the equivalent of Dabra.

So, in summary:

Broly in Movie 8 is equivalent to Cell when he was greatly-suppressed and beating up Vegeta. Cell or any Super Saiyan at the Cell Games would smoke him.

Broly in Movie 10 is roughly equivalent to either Dabra or to Super Perfect Cell. Any Super Saiyan 2 as strong or stronger than Cell Games Gohan would smoke him.

No freakin' way does he come close to ANY form of Boo (with the possible exception of the split "Mister" and "Pure Evil" Boos, but your mileage may vary on that one).

Okay? Everyone's happy!"

Posted by Kaboom

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14597&start=20

Ninjajp247

Aug 18 2011, 04:11 AM

I just dont see how the training would mean that, everyone here keeps saying what gohans words mean are this, well, since broly he also acquired a new form, now WHY would he not acknowledge that JUST because hes fighting in base at the time he said it? makes no sense. Super perfect cell was barely ssj2 tier, he was probably in the low to mid range. Gohan proved that by being beat down and half as strong, he still took cell out.

Clearly this is a movie gohan in movie 10, there is no proof gohan trained during those seven years, EsPecially since the LAST villain was bojack, 7 years before. Broly got a huge zenkai, but since him and mssj goku were already haxxed in movie 8 then they can go farther in movie 10 with a single whole form boosting zenkai.

Broly is as strong as goku and vegeta in ssj2 buu saga, but not eoz, so lets not pretend broly is hella super strong, our heroes passed him in strength canonically and in the movies.

He is able to fight mister buu, and just possibly has a sensible lead on goku and majin vegeta who are both stronger than kid gohan who IMO is stronger than teen gohan movie 10, an alternate theory about training shouldnt exist when its a what if based on the series, the only thing changed is the villain. They even stole the look from the series to put IN movie 8 just to finish it.

mister buu>broly movie 10>=ssj2 goku>=majin vegeta

Broly isnt strong enough to kill goku and vegeta without a knockdown dragout, one he could very well lose, when facing two fighters who have almost equal power to him. Anyone who denies goku and vegeta could easily kill broly just like he could them is living in a dream world. Goku almost killed broly with a lower pl in movie 8, on equal terms? do you guys really think broly would survive? against an ssj2 goku who is already mid ssj3? dont think so. But thats my opinion, believing broly to be strong enough to mess everyone up is just silly, for one, he wasnt that strong, 2, he's a what if character, 3. He's dead already. If broly was so tough he wouldnt be dead right now. Gohan killed him. So no matter how you argue about what happened and how "strong" broly was? he died, killed by weaklings.

In movie 8 he wasnt really that much stronger than goku, but his power runs deeper as the LSSJ and he recharges. Something he did in movie 8 twice by the way. Goku recharged once.

Im just saying, I PUT broly high tier ssj2 but hes not beating mister buu, and hes not "stomping" ANYONE equal in power to him. Admit it or not, the boy cant fight. Neither can superman....

lunar2

Aug 18 2011, 04:23 AM

Ninjajp247

Aug 18 2011, 04:11 AM

I just dont see how the training would mean that, everyone here keeps saying what gohans words mean are this, well, since broly he also acquired a new form, now WHY would he not acknowledge that JUST because hes fighting in base at the time he said it? makes no sense. Super perfect cell was barely ssj2 tier, he was probably in the low to mid range. Gohan proved that by being beat down and half as strong, he still took cell out.

Clearly this is a movie gohan in movie 10, there is no proof gohan trained during those seven years, EsPecially since the LAST villain was bojack, 7 years before. Broly got a huge zenkai, but since him and mssj goku were already haxxed in movie 8 then they can go farther in movie 10 with a single whole form boosting zenkai.

Broly is as strong as goku and vegeta in ssj2 buu saga, but not eoz, so lets not pretend broly is hella super strong, our heroes passed him in strength canonically and in the movies.

He is able to fight mister buu, and just possibly has a sensible lead on goku and majin vegeta who are both stronger than kid gohan who IMO is stronger than teen gohan movie 10, an alternate theory about training shouldnt exist when its a what if based on the series, the only thing changed is the villain. They even stole the look from the series to put IN movie 8 just to finish it.

mister buu>broly movie 10>=ssj2 goku>=majin vegeta

Broly isnt strong enough to kill goku and vegeta without a knockdown dragout, one he could very well lose, when facing two fighters who have almost equal power to him. Anyone who denies goku and vegeta could easily kill broly just like he could them is living in a dream world. Goku almost killed broly with a lower pl in movie 8, on equal terms? do you guys really think broly would survive? against an ssj2 goku who is already mid ssj3? dont think so. But thats my opinion, believing broly to be strong enough to mess everyone up is just silly, for one, he wasnt that strong, 2, he's a what if character, 3. He's dead already. If broly was so tough he wouldnt be dead right now. Gohan killed him. So no matter how you argue about what happened and how "strong" broly was? he died, killed by weaklings.

In movie 8 he wasnt really that much stronger than goku, but his power runs deeper as the LSSJ and he recharges. Something he did in movie 8 twice by the way. Goku recharged once.

Im just saying, I PUT broly high tier ssj2 but hes not beating mister buu, and hes not "stomping" ANYONE equal in power to him. Admit it or not, the boy cant fight. Neither can superman....

"he's as bad a monster as ever. and here i'm supposed to have powered up considerably since then."

how could that phrase possibly be referring to ssj2? gohan is speaking in present terms: broly IS as much of a challenge as last time. gohan IS much more powerful than last time.

not

broly will be as much of a challenge when he transforms, or gohan will be much stronger when he transforms.

the second interpretation doesn't even make sense. it's completely illogical, especially considering how much more powerful BASE gohan is than MSSJ goten and trunks, who are canonically as powerful as gohan in the same form.

base gohan movie 10 is more powerful than base gohan movie 8, who is more powerful than base gohan in the buu arc. that is clearly shown in the movie.

lunar2

Aug 18 2011, 04:23 AM

base gohan movie 10 is more powerful than base gohan movie 8, who is more powerful than base gohan in the buu arc. that is clearly shown in the movie.

Ninjajp247

Aug 18 2011, 04:45 AM

they think because the unexplained rosat look they have in the movie, so they assume they were in the rosat longer than with cell. To me there is no proof they went into the rosat. But they all managed to look like their canon ounterparts anyways, thanks to movie magic.